Kingdom of Italy scenario [Archive] - Black Sea Studios Forums

Arcadius

26 Aug 2007, 01:41

Hello!
I'm new here and I'm creating my own scenario.
Sorry if my English is very bad :D

My scenario is named : KINGDOM OF ITALY

It has a huge map in which there are 168 towns.
The map covers North Italy, Alps and other countries.

North: Freiburg - Munchen - Wien
South: Ajaccio - Rome - Sulmona - Shkoder
East: Shkoder - Sarajevo - Osijek - Buda
West: Rhone valley - Lyon - Besançon

I made only North Italy because the South was named "Kingdom of Sicily" or "Naples", and it would be too much big for me.

In 1300 North Italy was spread in several indipendent towns, cities, county, duchies, bishoprics, etc... even if the title of "King of Italy" was formally held by the Holy Roman Emperor.

I'm working on a scenario in which the player can fight for the unification of Italy in year 1300, with friendship and hostility between the two main parties of that time: Guelphs and Ghibellines.

I'll need surely some help, so I'hope to find some kind person... :rolleyes: :D

I'll give you soon some picture about my work.

Arcadius

26 Aug 2007, 01:56

This is the list of realms.
The first name is the Realm, the second is the Kingdom from which it depends.

They are 166 because i must find 2 cities in Balkans.
I'd be pleased if someone can give me the name of some bosnian or hungarian town that was important in XIVth century but is not in this list.

Thank you! :go:

NOTE: names are in Italian because I'm Italian and all my historical Atlases use them. :D
VESC means "vescovato", "Bishopric" in English
ABBAZ means "abbazia", "Abbey" in English
____________________________________________

Scutari Serbia
Cettigne Zeta
Cattaro Serbia
Ragusa Ragusa
Spalato Ungheria
Sebenico Ungheria
Zara Venezia
Cherso Venezia
Fiume Ungheria
Zagabria Ungheria
Pola Venezia
Trieste Venezia
Lubiana Carniola
Cilli Cilli
Graz Austria
Vienna Austria
Klagenfurt Carinzia
Aquileia Aquileia
Cividale Aquileia
Venezia Venezia
Treviso Treviso
Padova Padova
Vicenza Vicenza
Adria VESC
Verona Verona
Trento VESC
Feltre VESC
Merano Tirolo
Innsbruck Tirolo
Feldkirch Tirolo
Mantova mantova
Ferrara Este
Modena Este
Reggio Este
Bologna Bologna
Ravenna VESC
Imola Imola
Forlì Forli
Rimini malatesta
Cesena Cesena
Urbino Montefeltro
Senigallia Chiesa
Ancona Chiesa
Camerino Camerino
Fermo Fermo
Ascoli Ascoli
Teramo Napoli
Aquila Napoli
Chieti Napoli
Rieti Chiesa
Tivoli Chiesa
Roma Chiesa
Viterbo Chiesa
Castro Chiesa
Orvieto Chiesa
Spoleto Chiesa
Todi Todi
Perugia Perugia
Gubbio Gubbio
Città di castello Città di Castello
Cortona cortona
Chiusi Chiusi
Sovana Orsini
Arezzo Arezzo
Siena Siena
Grosseto Grosseto
Firenze Firenze
Prato Prato
Volterra VESC
Massa Massa
Elba Pisa
Piombino Pisa
Pisa Pisa
Pistoia Pistoia
Lucca Lucca
Pontremoli Malaspina
Parma Parma
Borgo San Donnino Parma
Piacenza Piacenza
Bobbio ABBAZ
Luni Genova
Lavagna Genova
Genova Genova
Savona Genova
Oneglia Genova
Finale Del Carretto
Monaco Grimaldi
Brescia brescia
Bergamo bergamo
Bormio Como
Chiavenna Como
Como Como
Cremona Cremona
Crema Crema
Lodi Lodi
Pavia Pavia
Lomello Pavia
Milano Milano
Monza Milano
Varese Milano
Locarno Milano
Novara Novara
Domodossola Novara
Vercelli Vercelli
Ivrea Ivrea
Casale Monferrato
Asti Asti
Alessandria Alessandria
Tortona Tortona
Ceva Ceva
Mondovì Mondovì
Tenda Tenda
Cuneo Saluzzo
Saluzzo Saluzzo
Nizza Nizza
Torino Savoia
Pinerolo Savoia
Susa Savoia
Aosta Savoia
Chambery Savoia
Annecy Savoia
Marsiglia Provenza
Aix Provenza
Arles Provenza
Avignone comitato venassino
Forcalquier Forcalquier
Vienne Delfinato
Grenoble Delfinato
Lione Francia
Macon Francia
Digione Borgogna
Chalon Borgogna
Besancon Borgogna
Montbeliard Montbeliard
Basilea VESC
Friburgo Wurttemberg
Ginevra Ginevra
Losanna VESC
Neuchatel Neuchatel
Berna Berna
Sion Vallese
Lucerna Lucerna
Zurigo Zurigo
Svitto Svizzera
Uri Svizzera
Coira VESC
Truns Grigioni
Costanza Turgovia
San Gallo ABBAZ
Sciaffusa Sciaffusa
Ravensburg Ravensburg
Kempten Kempten
Monaco Baviera
Kufstein Baviera
Salisburgo VESC
Gmunden Austria
Bratislava Ungheria
Buda Ungheria
Gyor Ungheria
Szekesfehervar Ungheria
Pecs Ungheria
Varasdino Ungheria
Esseg Ungheria
Jaice Bosnia
Srebrenik Bosnia
Sarajevo Bosnia

elvain

26 Aug 2007, 02:04

it looks great :go:

I'm looking forward to seeing some pictures ;)

Just why does Rome belong to Chiesa? is it Italian name for Vatican? and what is the year? 11..?

PS: just small advice: when drawing the map consider that it will stretch horizontaly when being trensformed to political map, so beter include more territorries in north-south direction and sacrifice some of east-west direction

PPS: if you want a help with names - making them also english - I think I could help you (at least with giving you atlases/links with english names

Arcadius

26 Aug 2007, 02:04

And now, my questions...
(oh yes... i made this post because i need a lot... a lot... a lot of help... :) )

I know that with F10 you can draw rivers.
But...

1) How can I draw rivers not "long and straight", but with bends and meanders ?

2) How can I draw roads? I saw them in Europe map, but I'm not able to draw them.

Thank you for your help :go:

elvain

26 Aug 2007, 02:12

I know that with F10 you can draw rivers.
But...

1) How can I draw rivers not "long and straight", but with bends and meanders ?

2) How can I draw roads? I saw them in Europe map, but I'm not able to draw them.

Thank you for your help :go:

search in this section and you will certainly find more info about rivers, but I'm afraid that meandres will be hard job to do

as for roads, I don't know. We are all still learning, just some "played" more and some less with the editor, so we are on diferent level of experience.

most of what is already known is also posted here, so I recomend to search here and in the old forum's archive (mapeditor thread there gives basic information, most of advices for more experienced mapmakers are here - if they exist)

Arcadius

26 Aug 2007, 02:14

Just why does Rome belong to Chiesa? is it Italian name for Vatican? and what is the year? 11..?

PS: just small advice: when drawing the map consider that it will stretch horizontaly when being trensformed to political map, so beter include more territorries in north-south direction and sacrifice some of east-west direction

PPS: if you want a help with names - making them also english - I think I could help you (at least with giving you atlases/links with english names

Yes, "Chiesa" is the Italian word for Church.
The correct name was "Patrimonium Sancti Petri" or "Stato Pontificio", because the name Vatican was in use only since 1929. In my list I used some abbreviations in my language :)

The year is 1300... I have a map of Italy in Dante's time, so I try to use it.

Thank you for your help.

elvain

26 Aug 2007, 02:16

Yes, "Chiesa" is the Italian word for Church.
The correct name was "Patrimonium Sancti Petri" or "Stato Pontificio", because the name Vatican was in use only since 1929. In my list I used some abbreviations in my language :)

The year is 1300... I have a map of Italy in Dante's time, so I try to use it.

Thank you for your help.

oh, I was confused that so many provinces belong to burgundy :D

and thanks for the excursion to italian names of Papal states :go:

Xuca

26 Aug 2007, 02:20

It seems we'll have lots of new scenarios. A person can hardly have enough time to play all of them, at least not in a short amount of time. :D

elvain

26 Aug 2007, 02:25

It seems we'll have lots of new scenarios. A person can hardly have enough time to play all of them, at least not in a short amount of time. :D

You are right, but at the same time I think we will all wait untill at least one is fully finnished... and then there will be some time to play it untill another is finnished ;)

Arcadius

26 Aug 2007, 02:36

Wolfitz

26 Aug 2007, 23:34

Hi Ardacius. You asked if someone could give some names of Bosnian, Serbian, or coastal towns that were in dispute or influenced by Italian city states. Here are some names that I know of: Dubrovnik( mostly influenced by the Venetians), Budva, Kotor, Bar, and Ulcinj. All of these towns were on the coast of Serbia of the 14th century, and of southern Bosnia(Hum); the Italian city states, and bishoprics had influence one way or another on these town. If you need some more help I would be glad to assist.:go: Good luck with the mod.

Arcadius

27 Aug 2007, 01:39

Hi Arcadius. You asked if someone could give some names of Bosnian, Serbian, or coastal towns that were in dispute or influenced by Italian city states. Here are some names that I know of: Dubrovnik( mostly influenced by the Venetians), Budva, Kotor, Bar, and Ulcinj. All of these towns were on the coast of Serbia of the 14th century, and of southern Bosnia(Hum); the Italian city states, and bishoprics had influence one way or another on these town. If you need some more help I would be glad to assist.:go: Good luck with the mod.

Thank you Wolfitz for your help.
In my scenario I had some of those towns with Italian names:
- Dubrovnik = Ragusa
- Budva = Budua
- Kotor = Cattaro
- Bar = Antivari
- Ulcinj = Dulcigno
I miss some important town of Bosnia, Serbia and Croatia.
I know that Sarajevo was founded in 1262 with the name of Bosnavar, but it wasn't a very important village in 1300.
Do you know any important Bosniac town in XIVth century?

Arcadius

27 Aug 2007, 10:33

In my scenario I'm trying to keep as much as possible the original and historical Coat of Arms of towns and countries, even if the game don't have all araldic ensigns.

In North Italy there are a lot of towns that have the Guelphic coat of arms (a red cross in a white field), for example Milano, Alessandria, Genova, Piacenza, Vercelli, etc...

I know that a player can be confused when he sees an army with the Guelphic ensign (he must check if that army is of Milano or Genova), but I think that the same would happened in the XIVth century.

So my questions are:

1) can I keep the same coat of arms for them or the game NEED a different one?

2) when in editor I select the option "PEACE" between two kingdoms, they will be in peace for all the game or only at the start of it?

Thank you!

elvain

27 Aug 2007, 11:14

I know that a player can be confused when he sees an army with the Guelphic ensign (he must check if that army is of Milano or Genova), but I think that the same would happened in the XIVth century.

So my questions are:

1) can I keep the same coat of arms for them or the game NEED a different one?

2) when in editor I select the option "PEACE" between two kingdoms, they will be in peace for all the game or only at the start of it?

Thank you!
to answer the first part, the problem isn't wnen you play as papacy or Venice and meet an army that is either from Milano or Genova or Alessandria or Piacenza - you will know witho whom of them you are at war and who is your possible enemy in certain realm.
The problem is when - and believe me that is very possible - you play as Milano and you meet army from Genova or Alessandria on a battlefield - in a melee you won't be able to tell your squads from enemy squads - they will all have the same colours and you wouldn't knowwhich is yours and which enemy's

so
1) in fact I don't think the game really needs it, but the gameplay does, but I never tried to put in 2 kingdoms with same colours

2) it means only in the beggining of the game. The same with war etc.

Arcadius

29 Aug 2007, 23:51

http://img74.imageshack.us/my.php?image=previewqv0.jpg

This is a piece of my map.
I'm still working on it.

I'm glad if someone have suggestions :)

Carbon

30 Aug 2007, 02:49

It looks good, but the map is too big, you will pretty much be making Switzerland and southern Germany (Which I am already making).

elvain

30 Aug 2007, 11:52

yes, the map looks great :go:
Just if I can recomend you better stretch the map in east-west direction (so don't have it too wide in this direction), because in political map it all stretches in north-south direction.
You can simply compare proportions of my mod's minimap and political map
or I edited your map to have proportions of political map and here you can see it:
http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/5972/italymappreviewzz3.jpg

PS: could you please post a picture of the ingame map, or with the white frame? I just wonder what size you use, it seems it's not the largest one, is it? (you're not remaling Europe map, right?)

Arcadius

30 Aug 2007, 18:15

yes, the map looks great :go:
Just if I can recomend you better stretch the map in east-west direction (so don't have it too wide in this direction), because in political map it all stretches in north-south direction.

Thank you for your suggestion.
You're right, but it's difficult for me to stretch the map.
I'm working with a scale, and so it would alterate all proportions.

PS: could you please post a picture of the ingame map, or with the white frame? I just wonder what size you use, it seems it's not the largest one, is it? (you're not remaling Europe map, right?)

Yes, I'm not using the "europe map", but the "random map".
I did so, because I wasn't able to extract "europe map" and for historical reasons.

Italy of XIVth century was a country in wich there were a lot of little and poor states (not all, because there were some Great Powers, like Venice, Genua, Milan, Papacy, etc...).
When you read the ancient chronicles, you can see that they take armies only for few months and they can't afford a lot of soldiers.
Most of them were forced to buy wheat from Genua and Venice, that imported it from East.

So, I didn't use europe map, because I try to reproduce the true situation, with a lot of little states with scarce resources.
I don't know if is a good thing, but I'm trying :)

What do you think about it?
Do you think the game will be too hard to play? Or boring?

Tell me what you think about, I'm interested because I know you are expert about modding.

elvain

31 Aug 2007, 00:26

I don't think the idea is bad, but let me have 2 questions I had to meet when creating my mod:
1) donť you think that castles too close one to the other will be good? If one state (most probably the player) has very good marshal it is very easy for him to wipe out entire kingdom in several minutes as well as grow a lot in those several minutes

2) this won't me much of a question, but still - I think that making the game very hard will primarily make it very hard for the AI. And as KoH Ai isn't the smartest one, I'm afraid that instead of making the game challenging for "small and poor state" at the gates of Genoa or Venice, it will be boring because it will be very easy to wipe out AI states with poor economy and no resources.
Also another question is how to base the economic power of Venice and Genoa (to make it historically correct) when their power base is out of the map?

btw, I believe you know that in 14th century Genoa was no longer a power which could compete with Venice

Carbon

31 Aug 2007, 03:03

Arcadius

31 Aug 2007, 03:29

I'm sure you have reason, so I played a demonstrative game.

When you play Europe, castles too close one to the other aren't good, because would be anti-historical that you can reach Paris from Rome in one minute. But if you play in a little part of Europe as Northern Italy, you have cities that are very close in reality (ex. from Milan you can reach Lodi in half day of march.

I was Milan, a middle power. I had few money, so I wasn't able to build an army soon. When I built it, all surrounding cities had a similar army. I tried to conquer Como (failed) then Lodi (success) and Bergamo. Then the Bishop of Trento declared a war against me, and we are fighting in mountains.
So, when game starts, you aren't able to win your neighbours, because you aren't rich.
Maybe you can when you'll have more money and skilled marshalls.

Another question: Genoa and Venice. In a map where near all states have one or two provinces, they have six, so they are "Great Power" when the game starts.
I'm not a modder, only a scenario's maker :) , but I'll try to give them some advantage in resources and in harbours (they start with a complete harbour).

I know that making a scenario is very difficult (and my English is very very bad :bash: ), but I'll try. It's only a game, and I have some time to spend in it. :D

Thank you a lot for your advice :go:

knez

1 Sep 2007, 05:35

Well... this is a picture of a little part of Dalmatia.

http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/8802/dalmazia1nv7.jpg

You can see Spalato (Split today), part of the Dinars Mountains, and Sebenico (Sibenik).

:rolleyes:
if I'm not mistaken (and I'm not), you've put serbian flag on croatian cities

for start http://www.euratlas.com/history_europe/europe_map_1300.html and http://www.euratlas.com/history_europe/europe_map_1400.html
so you can get some broader image on situation

Hi Ardacius. You asked if someone could give some names of Bosnian, Serbian, or coastal towns that were in dispute or influenced by Italian city states. Here are some names that I know of: Dubrovnik( mostly influenced by the Venetians), Budva, Kotor, Bar, and Ulcinj. All of these towns were on the coast of Serbia of the 14th century, and of southern Bosnia(Hum); the Italian city states, and bishoprics had influence one way or another on these town. If you need some more help I would be glad to assist.:go: Good luck with the mod.

Thank you Wolfitz for your help.
In my scenario I had some of those towns with Italian names:
- Dubrovnik = Ragusa
- Budva = Budua
- Kotor = Cattaro
- Bar = Antivari
- Ulcinj = Dulcigno
I miss some important town of Bosnia, Serbia and Croatia.
I know that Sarajevo was founded in 1262 with the name of Bosnavar, but it wasn't a very important village in 1300.
Do you know any important Bosniac town in XIVth century?

:rolleyes:
like, maybe you could put inside name of capital city of (half)independent Bosnian kingdom at that time?

no offense dude, but you could, like, do some research, read a book or two or atleast get a decent (and detailed) map
you can't just start drawing map and expect it to have anything to do with reality...

elvain

1 Sep 2007, 10:51

:rolleyes:
if I'm not mistaken (and I'm not), you've put serbian flag on croatian cities

for start http://www.euratlas.com/history_europe/europe_map_1300.html and http://www.euratlas.com/history_europe/europe_map_1400.html
so you can get some broader image on situation

like, maybe you could put inside name of capital city of (half)independent Bosnian kingdom at that time?
no offense, dude, but if I'm not mistaken (and I'm not!) he showed a screenshot from a mod that just has been started.
From a mooder and scenario-maker experience I can tell you that it is rather normal to have just something - just several states and several realms, and when you save the game all other cities are made to belong to some of kingdoms, so, my dear dure, I wouldn't be affraid that:
1) he didn't do any research before making this mod
2) plans to have Dalmatian cities be part of Serbia - if you'd look into a list of realms Arcadius offered, you would see that both cities will belong to Hungary
;)

IWM

1 Sep 2007, 11:22

Elvain, why you post with the American-English languange?
I surprised!:) :D .
Anyway that's true, the link's a little bad for reality.If only the time machine can be built now

Carbon

1 Sep 2007, 21:13

Elvain, why you post with the American-English languange?
I surprised!:) :D .
Anyway that's true, the link's a little bad for reality.If only the time machine can be built now

You mean slang, American english is like spelling KoH: Knights of honor, and the rest spell it Knights of honour. Yes it was funny to read Elvain's post with the slang on it, I think it puts more character.

Frankoman

1 Sep 2007, 22:10

European and American written languages vary.

Mum, Mom

Cheque, Check

Centre, Center

Theartre, Theater

Etc, etc.

Doux

1 Sep 2007, 22:55

If I'm not mistaken (no, and I am not), Elvain's post contained a good dose of sarcasm.

But to return to the topic, the idea looks good! But I wonder, too, why you include so much of surrounding territory if the scenario concerns Italy. Maybe turn Italy for 90 degrees so it fits on the map?

Arcadius

2 Sep 2007, 01:33

:rolleyes:
if I'm not mistaken (and I'm not), you've put serbian flag on croatian cities

Ok... I'm afraid... you're mistaken :)
1) In KOH you cannot use true Coats of Arms. So I choose for Hungary the white double-cross on red, one of the most ancient hungarian ensign. Serbia has (and had) a white simple cross with other signs
2) In my picture I have "Split" and "Sibenik". Both cities in the exact year 1300 were autonomous communes under the "protection" (i.e. "vassallage") of Hungary.

no offense dude, but you could, like, do some research, read a book or two or atleast get a decent (and detailed) map
you can't just start drawing map and expect it to have anything to do with reality...

Thank you a lot for your link that I've already seen.
In that map, those two towns are croatians and Croatia is under Hungarian vassallage :)
Thank you for your confirmation.

I'm very happy to see that there is someone that knows history so good and is so kind :D

Arcadius

2 Sep 2007, 01:46

But I wonder, too, why you include so much of surrounding territory if the scenario concerns Italy. Maybe turn Italy for 90 degrees so it fits on the map?

Italy had a lot of links and relations with border-countries.

I need Savoy and west-Switzerland, because those realms were of Savoy
I need central-Switzerland, because Milan had some territories there
I need Provence, because Charles of Provence attempted to conquer Italy
I need Dalmatia, because Venetia had some possesions there

I don't need Naples, because it is too big for a balanced game and in the XIVth century they used the name "Italy" for north and center and "Naples" for south Italy.

Carbon

2 Sep 2007, 10:37

Italy had a lot of links and relations with border-countries.

I need Savoy and west-Switzerland, because those realms were of Savoy
I need central-Switzerland, because Milan had some territories there
I need Provence, because Charles of Provence attempted to conquer Italy
I need Dalmatia, because Venetia had some possesions there

I don't need Naples, because it is too big for a balanced game and in the XIVth century they used the name "Italy" for north and center and "Naples" for south Italy.

If I'm not mistaken, central switzerland was not controlled by Milan, it was the three swiss cantons (most southern-most of which is Uri) that held central switzerland. Also, you may need the other parts you mentioned: Southern switzerland, Provence, Dalmatia but you also need Crimea, crete, rhodes etc. for Genoa and Venetian territory. Also you don't need southern Germany, do you?

Arcadius

2 Sep 2007, 11:10

If I'm not mistaken, central switzerland was not controlled by Milan, it was the three swiss cantons (most southern-most of which is Uri) that held central switzerland. Also, you may need the other parts you mentioned: Southern switzerland, Provence, Dalmatia but you also need Crimea, crete, rhodes etc. for Genoa and Venetian territory. Also you don't need southern Germany, do you?

Yes, central Switzerland wasn't controlled by Milan, but there were some wars between Milan and Uri. In XVth century, Milan was allied with Charles the Bold, duke of Burgundy, to attempt to conquer central Switzerland. So I put Switzerland in map.

I put also South Germany because I have space in map and because a player can play with Habsburg and conquer Italy. :)

I think that it's impossible to have Crimea, Crete, Rhodes, Samo and other territories... it isn't an infinite map :D

elvain

2 Sep 2007, 13:35

1) In KOH you cannot use true Coats of Arms. So I choose for Hungary the white double-cross on red, one of the most ancient hungarian ensign. Serbia has (and had) a white simple cross with other signs
2) In my picture I have "Split" and "Sibenik". Both cities in the exact year 1300 were autonomous communes under the "protection" (i.e. "vassallage") of Hungary.

Thank you a lot for your link that I've already seen.
In that map, those two towns are croatians and Croatia is under Hungarian vassallage :)
Thank you for your confirmation.

just several sidenotes:
1) I knw the cross from Hungarian coat of arms is not far from an "orthodox cross" but I still think it looks little weird to have an orthodox cross to represent a catholic kingdom, just my opinion

2) the thing about Croatian vasssallage to Hungary is also little out of reality IMO. As far as I know (according to mostly Croatian interpretation) Croatia was an independent state in personal union with Hungary, it wasn't a vasal, but king of Hungary automaticaly got also title of king of Croatia and Slavonia.

3) Xuca could correct me, but I think that the best symbol for Serbia in KOH could be white eagle in red field (the eagle which is in 4 red fields of the coat divided by simple white cross). In your scenario you can easily afford it as it will not get confused with Poland ;)

Arcadius

2 Sep 2007, 14:58

just several sidenotes:
1) I knw the cross from Hungarian coat of arms is not far from an "orthodox cross" but I still think it looks little weird to have an orthodox cross to represent a catholic kingdom, just my opinion

2) the thing about Croatian vasssallage to Hungary is also little out of reality IMO. As far as I know (according to mostly Croatian interpretation) Croatia was an independent state in personal union with Hungary, it wasn't a vasal, but king of Hungary automaticaly got also title of king of Croatia and Slavonia.

3) Xuca could correct me, but I think that the best symbol for Serbia in KOH could be white eagle in red field (the eagle which is in 4 red fields of the coat divided by simple white cross). In your scenario you can easily afford it as it will not get confused with Poland ;)

1) I know that Hungarian cross is a "Lorraine Cross" (double), but there isn't this flag in KOH. So I'm trying to use PROVISIONALLY the orthodox cross, because is the most similar to the true cross. I'd like to change coats of arms, but it's a problem that I'll see when I'll finish the map.
For example, I'm provisionally using also two gold crossed sword on red as coat of arms of Papacy, because is the most similar to two crossed keys. The white-yellow flag is modern (1824).
I prefer similar coats of arms rather than imaginary ones.

2)Croatia was a state with a personal union with Hungary from 1102. So, I think that in KOH you can have only three choice: annexation, vassalage or indipendence. I'm not agree with an indipendent Croatia in a scenario of 1300, because the country was essentially loyal to Hungarian Crown, except for the Šubić family, that became particularly influential and asserted control over large parts of Dalmatia, Slavonia and Bosnia during an internal conflict between the Árpád and Anjou ruling dynasties. Later, however, the Anjouvines intervened and scattered the Šubić family across the country and won a full control over Slavonia and Croatia.
So I think that choice is between vassallage (for example under Šubić) or complete union. When I'll be able to make the script of vassallage, I'll see that.

3) I know. I've already used it ... even if it is wrong. ;)
If you read the oldest described flag of a medieval Serbian kingdom, better would be a red-blue flag or a red eagle in yellow field, as you can see in this link.
http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/rs_em.html

Thank you for your advice :go:

Xuca

2 Sep 2007, 16:15

3) I know. I've already used it ... even if it is wrong. ;)
If you read the oldest described flag of a medieval Serbian kingdom, better would be a red-blue flag or a red eagle in yellow field, as you can see in this link.
http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/rs_em.html

Thank you for your advice :go:

Those flags that are described there are from the period of house of Nemanjic, and while the rulers from the dynasty may had different flags (both Stefan Vladislav and Stefan Dushan that are mentioned there were Nemanjics), the coat of arms of the house of Nemanjic was a white two-headed eagle on a red background.

elvain

2 Sep 2007, 16:45

1) I know that Hungarian cross is a "Lorraine Cross" (double), but there isn't this flag in KOH. So I'm trying to use PROVISIONALLY the orthodox cross, because is the most similar to the true cross. I'd like to change coats of arms, but it's a problem that I'll see when I'll finish the map.
...
I prefer similar coats of arms rather than imaginary ones.

2)Croatia was a state with a personal union with Hungary from 1102. So, I think that in KOH you can have only three choice: annexation, vassalage or indipendence. I'm not agree with an indipendent Croatia in a scenario of 1300, because the country was essentially loyal to Hungarian Crown, except for the Šubić family...
So I think that choice is between vassallage (for example under Šubić) or complete union.

1) yes, also I would like to change the coats, but I'm affraid we need a .rle editor for that

2) I'm also between vasalage or complete union, but rather for an union, because the ruler would be the same, but in KoH the same ruler would have diferent age in diferent kingdoms...
in my ME scenario in post 1102 maps I decided to give Slavonia (Zagreb) directly to Hungary and Croatia (around Senj) make vassal Croatian state and gave Dalmatia to Venice (because otherwise it wouldn't be represented at all in 1180 and in 1250 it was mostly under Venetian controll or influence - speaking so for the cities of course)

Arcadius

2 Sep 2007, 19:13

I'm also between vasalage or complete union, but rather for an union, because the ruler would be the same, but in KoH the same ruler would have diferent age in diferent kingdoms...

I'm for union too.
That's why I put Croatia under the Hungarian dominion (even I caused disappointment in Knez) :)

Arcadius

3 Sep 2007, 23:19

Liiwo

4 Sep 2007, 17:22

Anyone knows if limit is 168 kingdoms or 168 realms?
I think it's it's 168 realms, but I'm not sure.Can I leave zones without any kingdom or realm?
I'm afraid no.Can I change color of a knigdom without changing colors of its coat of arms?
(for example: if I put a red flag, a kingdom has red color. Can I have red flag and orange color?)I don't think so.

Doux

4 Sep 2007, 19:27

Anyone knows if limit is 168 kingdoms or 168 realms?

Can I leave zones without any kingdom or realm?

Can I change color of a knigdom without changing colors of its coat of arms?
(for example: if I put a red flag, a kingdom has red color. Can I have red flag and orange color?)1. Answered (correctly). 2. Answered. 3. You can choose colour1, colour2 and politcolour - so, yes, I thought you can change flag colours (and symbol) and kingdom politic map colours independently.

Liiwo

4 Sep 2007, 22:13

3. You can choose colour1, colour2 and politcolour - so, yes, I thought you can change flag colours (and symbol) and kingdom politic map colours independently.
Well, I presumed that he meant the colour in which the marshals are shown on the minimap, which is on the units' armour, on the royal family view and such. Of course you can change the political colour, which indicates the colour of the states in the map to avoid a mess.

Doux

4 Sep 2007, 23:07

Well, I presumed that he meant the colour in which the marshals are shown on the minimap, which is on the units' armour, on the royal family view and such. Of course you can change the political colour, which indicates the colour of the states in the map to avoid a mess.Now that I reread it, that is equally good, or perhaps better, an interpretation!

Arcadius

5 Sep 2007, 01:13

Now that I reread it, that is equally good, or perhaps better, an interpretation!

Wow! If my English need an interpretation, my English is very poor! :cry:

Liiwo interpretated well :)
So, how can I do to change that colour?

Arcadius

9 Sep 2007, 23:30

Maybe I resolved the problem!
In file map.ini I found that even if I change the name of the map, it remains the link to original map named "europe".
So it reads file from "europe" folder, and not from "Italy" (my folder).
Now I changed map name in map.ini file from "map/europe" to "map/italy" and now it seems to work.

Maybe is it the protection of Saint Elvain? :D

domagoj

22 Mar 2009, 17:31

siwaan

7 Jul 2009, 15:35

hi all
I love that in every east-european country, histrory is teached differently :D I know it because I am Hungarian and travel a lot around :) so I think it is wiser to use information only from west-european databases :)

1300 was a really chaotic time in the history of Hungary (era of the little kings, when the Árpád dynasty ended, and kings had no power), i.e. the border parts were bounded very loosly. and the Anjou dynasty from Naples started to take the counntry (succesfully), step by step from the direction of Croatia, making alliances and wars within the country.

so I would set the coastal Croatian towns independent of Hungary, but in alliance (or maybe vassalage + alliance, as I know it is possible in the game), because they tried to resist Venice (or Venezia), sometimes with success, but usually the good quality Venetian troops and the fleet dominated the area. and they used the Hungarian flag only to have reason to ask help from Hungary against Venice. the best example is Ragusa/Dubrovnik.

here is a link to a map of north Italy in 1336 (scroll down to the 4th one) but without the Balkan part:
http://www.lemontree.hu/egyebkep/linkkep/history/map/kozepkor/kozepkor.htm