View Full Version : The Problem with buying Worldshit for KoH 2
I was, like many, dissapointed to hear there will be no KoH 2 anytime soon. Instead BSS is now working on a whole new project, improved state-of-the-art graphics etc. Something that cannot run on my awful computer. So I have been hearing alot about, buying Worldshift so BSS has the money to create KoH 2, well if BSS gets the money with worldshift there could be several problems KoH fans will go through:
1. Worldshift might be successful enough to have it's very own sequel, BSS might simply assume that the game is more of a money-maker than KoH, and so may as well make a sequel to a money-making game rather than a game that makes less money.
2. KoH may not have sold for several reasons, one definetly being 2-D graphics. I love the graphics, the game runs smoothly on my computer, and the graphics are just fine, infact I want KoH 2 with similar graphics. Many others would agree, right? Well if BSS wanted to make KoH 2 after Worldshift, wouldn't they want it to be 3-D graphics? Good 3-D graphics using recent technology so those gamers who only care about graphics, get what they want, and so BSS could make more money.
All I'm saying is buying worldshift and assuming BSS will make KoH 2 in return, the way we want it, might not happen unless we are absolutely garunteed by BSS or someone that works there to assure us that we will get KoH 2 in the future.
Frankoman
29 Jul 2007, 19:48
You said worldshit in the title :D
You said worldshit in the title :D
How can you edit titles?:o
Pericle
30 Jul 2007, 19:22
As I see it, they will certainly make KoH soner or later. They might finish WS and use its engine, improve it and make a 3D KoH2. Thou I love 2D camera.
As I see it, they will certainly make KoH soner or later. They might finish WS and use its engine, improve it and make a 3D KoH2. Thou I love 2D camera.
This is kind of what I meant, if WS is successful they might make a sequel to WS, but they might also make a 3-D sequel to KoH, lose-lose situation for KoH fans like us, we need official word from BSS garunteeing that we can see the KoH 2 that we want.
Mephistopheles
30 Jul 2007, 21:00
I can't see where a 3d sequel to KoH would be any worse than the same game done in 2d. I'm sure advanced graphics can be used to draw an even more athmospheric enviroment than KoH had.
I can't see where a 3d sequel to KoH would be any worse than the same game done in 2d. I'm sure advanced graphics can be used to draw an even more athmospheric enviroment than KoH had.
Well of course we don't want the exact same graphics, that would be horrible for a sequel, but great for an expansion pack! Maybe improve the graphics, add 3-D where we need to (small parts, maybe buildings, armies etc.) but keep a general 2-D atmosphere running on the same KoH1 engine (again, it would be an improved engine)
Why do you want 2D graphics if you don't have a clue what KoH would look like in 3D?
I can't see where a 3d sequel to KoH would be any worse than the same game done in 2d. I'm sure advanced graphics can be used to draw an even more athmospheric enviroment than KoH had.
Yup, I think the same.
Why do you want 2D graphics if you don't have a clue what KoH would look like in 3D?
Yup, I think the same.
KoH is a game meant to be in 2-D, I'm sure alot of others would agree. Some improvements are necessary yes, but the game should remain..generaly 2-D. And honestly, were the 2-D graphics bad?
As for knowing KoH in 3-D, the battles, would be just like total war battles, but a little smaller. The strategic view would mostly likely not have the same details as 2-D graphics, and would look more like blocks, and anything more than blocks my computer can't handle anyway. All I'm saying is that full 3-D KoH = won't be the same KoH experience we all enjoy.
KoH is a game meant to be in 2-D, I'm sure alot of others would agree. Some improvements are necessary yes, but the game should remain..generaly 2-D. And honestly, were the 2-D graphics bad?
As for knowing KoH in 3-D, the battles, would be just like total war battles, but a little smaller. The strategic view would mostly likely not have the same details as 2-D graphics, and would look more like blocks, and anything more than blocks my computer can't handle anyway. All I'm saying is that full 3-D KoH = won't be the same KoH experience we all enjoy.
I didn't say that I didn't like the 2-D graphics or that they wouldn't look good.
And how do you want to know that a full 3-D KoH wouldn't be the same experience? You don't even excactly know what it would look like. And how do you want to know that the battles would look like total war battles?
You don't know how BSS would make the battles or the strategic view in 3-D, so I think there is no reason at all to direclty block complete 3-D graphics.
I didn't say that I didn't like the 2-D graphics or that they wouldn't look good.
And how do you want to know that a full 3-D KoH wouldn't be the same experience? You don't even excactly know what it would look like. And how do you want to know that the battles would look like total war battles?
You don't know how BSS would make the battles or the strategic view in 3-D, so I think there is no reason at all to direclty block complete 3-D graphics.
Well I don't need to know, or see screenshots, you can make basic predictions. Most 3-D strategy games are similar in that manner. If you look at the battles, you make them 3-D, you add a camera, change some angle-views and it would look like total war. The only differences that would exist, would be insignificant, like fewer men or different buildings etc. but it would generaly look like total war, based on my hypothesis. Also, what made KoH stand out from Rome: total war at the time? Graphics, everyone here could have just bought Rome: total war if they wanted 3-D over 2-D, and that's what many people did, the people who didn't care about the graphics, but the gameplay were smarter, and could have picked either, as they were both good, but some chose KoH. If KoH2 was released on a new 3-D engine, we wouldn't be sure it would give the same gaming experience or better as KoH, in fact it might be similar to other over-hyped strategy games that will be released with it. If KoH used the same engine as KoH, but with improvements then we are practically garunteed that the graphics would give us the same gaming experience we had with KoH.
Mephistopheles
30 Jul 2007, 22:01
You are basing your fear of 3d engines on the observation that many 3d strategy games lack depth of gameplay. That is not necessarily that way.
The point is: Regardless what graphical representation is chosen it's never detrimental to the gameplay (...if the graphics engine is at least capable of supporting all features of the gameplay, like the user interface).
Graphics are much rather supplemental to the gameplay. The graphics, just like a proper sound track, can improve the athmosphere of the game.
I agree with you that 3d-cameras can be confusing. The gameplay should never require the player to tilt the camera. Everything should easily be accessible without ever fiddling with the camera so the game handles just like a 2d game, but can still get the profits of correct aspect, lighting effects and other advantages of a 3d engine.
I'd like to see a full-flexed 3d engine that can depict medieval europe realistically, without using icons to replace actual towns, without using icons to depict forests, without wrong size relations due to a lack of zooming-capability. I'd like to see proper textures on forrests with the correct colors, volumetric clouds that look like real clouds, surfaces that are more reflective when it has recently rained, mountain shadows that become longer when the sun sets, everything you'd graphically expect if you were floating two kilometers above the ground watching medieval europe.
Basically I'd like the graphical representation to be so convincing that I can forget that I'm looking at a game for a while. And I believe that a fully flexed 3d engine can provide that better than a 2d representation.
(Btw: KoH is a mix of 3d and 2d. KoH has a 3d ground surface and places 2d objects on it.)
You are basing your fear of 3d engines on the observation that many 3d strategy games lack depth of gameplay. That is not necessarily that way.
The point is: Regardless what graphical representation is chosen it's never detrimental to the gameplay (...if the graphics engine is at least capable of supporting all features of the gameplay, like the user interface).
Graphics are much rather supplemental to the gameplay. The graphics, just like a proper sound track, can improve the athmosphere of the game.
I agree with you that 3d-cameras can be confusing. The gameplay should never require the player to tilt the camera. Everything should easily be accessible without ever fiddling with the camera so the game handles just like a 2d game, but can still get the profits of correct aspect, lighting effects and other advantages of a 3d engine.
I'd like to see a full-flexed 3d engine that can depict medieval europe realistically, without using icons to replace actual towns, without using icons to depict forests, without wrong size relations due to a lack of zooming-capability. I'd like to see proper textures on forrests with the correct colors, volumetric clouds that look like real clouds, surfaces that are more reflective when it has recently rained, mountain shadows that become longer when the sun sets, everything you'd graphically expect if you were floating two kilometers above the ground watching medieval europe.
Basically I'd like the graphical representation to be so convincing that I can forget that I'm looking at a game for a while. And I believe that a fully flexed 3d engine can provide that better than a 2d representation.
(Btw: KoH is a mix of 3d and 2d. KoH has a 3d ground surface and places 2d objects on it.)
I think you got me kind of wrong. I don't hate 3-D neither do I fear it, I like many 3-D games, and prefer some 3-D over 2-D, infact I prefer that on games more than I prefer 2-D over 3-D, for me KoH is one of those rare exceptions where I find 2-D suits it more. And this doesn't have to be a completely full 2-D engine, I did say improve the graphics to enhance gameplay didn't I? I also said, in my first post, that we want similar, not exact graphics. I would, personally be dissapointed if it's such a large change, that it's a completely different gaming experience. Maybe keep some of the 2-D, add some 3-D to make it a little better, but keep a more balanced mix. Unless a full 3-D conversion can promise us as much replay value as KoH 1 has, then I'm all up for it. (Unless it can't run on my computer;) lol)
Atmosphere
30 Jul 2007, 23:00
WorldSHIT lolz couldnt help but make a comment at that
2-D, 3-D, 2-D - Friends, do you really think that BSS doesn't realize what the strongest points of KoH really are? :) I can assure you, we do! I am not saying there will be or will not be KoH2. But in any case we ain't changing gameplay for graphics. As Mephisto very correctly said, graphics are just a tool to represent an idea - great tool and one of the few we have, but anyway - the idea is (and should always be) the leading force.
2-D, 3-D, 2-D - Friends, do you really think that BSS doesn't realize what the strongest points of KoH really are? :) I can assure you, we do! I am not saying there will be or will not be KoH2. But in any case we ain't changing gameplay for graphics. As Mephisto very correctly said, graphics are just a tool to represent an idea - great tool and one of the few we have, but anyway - the idea is (and should always be) the leading force.
lol, I did notice too many 2-Ds and 3-Ds in my last post.
Pericle
31 Jul 2007, 11:00
You can still make a 3D world with a feeling of a 2D view. So it all depends on the devs. They can make a great game with 3D graphix. It all depends on their ideas.
The initial idea is the most important part in a game's development. That will affect all the development. So if that idea is wrong or too bold or too demanding then they will find themselves in a bad position a few days before release.
I know this because I am a great fan of the Gothic series. I am a mod on the JoWooD forum and I saw how things evolved with Gothic 3. The first 2, Gothic 1 and 2 were, for me, the best RPGs ever made. Their team was small, around 30, but they had a great initial concept and they made a fairly small game, when it comes to size. Still it was full of hand-made content, no random things like in Morrowind, etc.
Gothic 3 wanted to be more than it should have. Too big, too demanding, just too much for Piranha Bytes. Still the game is nice, people like it, but I can't put it near my Gothic 1 and 2 classics. It lost its feeling at least a part of it. They wanted Gothic 3 to be more "user friendly" for the US public. Frankly, their german aproach in Gothic 1 and 2 was what gave that game its awesome style and feeling.
So my message to you, BSS, is to remember what made your game awesome in the beginning, KoH, and never change that! Gothic 1, when it was release was heard only in Germany. Then in time people started to hear about it and loved it. Just like KoH. Never change a game for money! Never change a game so it will look more like "Total War because that game has great succes". In a way Gothic 3 wanted to be as big as Oblivion, which was a bad decision.
All I want to say is that from what I saw, developers make their best games in the beginning because after that, if they have succes, they will start to take the road of money, copetition with big companies, things which will ultimately lead to bad decisions.
So my last words would be: Go back to the roots when making a sequel to a game which had great succes and don't change that idea!
I hope my advice was helpful! ;)
Cheers, Pericle
Well, I personally have absolutely nothing against 3D "Total War"-like battles in a KoH2! I'd actually be quite glad if the battle element of the game is improved in that direction, since, at the current stage, leading battles is pretty much boring, at least compared to the TW ones. So, at least in my eyes, the battles of KoH were one of its weakest elements and improving it in a KoH2 would only make better. Of course, it's also vital that the AI be strengthened a lot and it would be even greater if diplomacy and espionage, the pearls in the crown of KoH, are further developed (and there's still a nice enough room for that). However, back on the graphics part - 3D battles is Ok with me (especially if there could be an option to switch to 2D for the people with slower computers), but I'm not sure I'd like a 3D political view - the current one is nearly just perfect (I'd only enhance the geography a bit - sailable rivers, hardly passable mountains etc.).
Mircoslavux
31 Jul 2007, 19:26
You said worldshit in the title :D
that's the joke of this week....lol:eek: :D :D :D :D
thanks for it...