View Full Version : Demoralization
Demoralezation in East Country.
What do you think about that?
I think that the American Free :( (many) made that
(there are many gangster in Jakarta now.Very sad for us)
Richard
10 Aug 2007, 03:17
Demoralezation in East Country.
What do you think about that?
I think that the American Free :( (many) made that
(there are many gangster in Jakarta now.Very sad for us)
Are you saying that the americans are responsible for the gangsters? I don't don't get what are you trying to say :confused:
before I start, I'd like to ask you , IWM, to read my words properly and try to ask yourself every single question I ask - every sentence that ends with "?" (but not every word) - and try to answer it yourself please
I don't know what kind of demoralization you mean, though I must say that demoralization goes along man his entire history (no matter where you believe it has started)
So (1) what kind of demoralization you mean?
and I will just continue in asking stupid questions:
(2) Why is America* responsible for gangsters or prostitutes in Indonesia?
* (America? you mean the continent itself? Brazilian footballers? Peruan indians? GWBush? american chrisian fundamentalists? Holywood? US universities and scientists? Fidel Castro? Hugo Chávez? samba dancers? Canadian multiculturalism? Inuites (the Eskimos)? or who? because this all and many more is what America is, as well as so many human dreams - from "land of equal chances for everyone" to "empire of sin")
(3) Is the gangsterism and prostitution in Indonesia done by Americans in Indonesia or by Indonesians who have their own rules and intellect to follow?
There have always been Prostitutes and gangsters in almost al parts of world, more or less hidden to normal people, but (4) how can be something so abstract and "young" like America responsible for it (prostitution and gangsters)?
(5) What would you tell me if I'd say that Islam is the reason that houndreds of thousands husbands all around the world abuse their wives?
I can tell you why such claim could be said: in culture of Islam the behaviour of man is visibly by far the most intolerant to women. (6) Does it mean that all men who abuse women are muslims? (7) does it mean that Islam is responsible for all these abusments?
and to continue asking at least several unanswered questions from our previous discussion:
(8) Why does the-God punnish people in Indonesia, Japan or Pakistan for their sins with earthquakes and does not punnish them in Europe, USA or Maghreb?
(9) Why is the most oil-wealthy part of Saudi Arabia province of al-Hasa which is predominantly Shiite, when wahhabite 'ulamaa say that the oil has been given to Saudi Arabia by the God?
(10) why the most developed or progressive regions all lie out of the muslim world? (in East Asia, USA, Europe)
Qoute:Elvain
(10) why the most developed or progressive regions all lie out of the muslim world? (in East Asia, USA, Europe)[/QUOTE]
First I'll answer the question that is in my reach
The reason why the Muslim World is in brutal state now is because Mongol Invasion
(Like you know,when the Mongol Invade Baghdad they destroy most books there,The copy survived was mainly in North Africa and Europe) and then they also probihited free-speeching
(Just everyone here to know,The free-speech originate in near Arabs.Or Middle East for it's the place of birth of many great civilitazion,morality,and science(Phsycics,biologys,Chemicals,And Religion too(All semit religion originates there.This could mean 2 reason:1)The Semits people are blessed
:or 2)The Semits people are the most barbaric of the people in the world.The example was the death of nabyy Zakaria and Yahya(Although maybe the name is diffrent in english,I'll use the name that I was told about))
And then it's people after the turks has running away from the way of science.Altoght they were a bend of people(I can't use word RACE here :) ) that is great in science and Military (they still,though.Search for the mountain men in Afganishtan,The men there is very good at fighting).Now the west rise because the MUSLIM Stupidity.
For others I'll answer later
Indonesia War Minister
Qoute:Elvain
(10) why the most developed or progressive regions all lie out of the muslim world? (in East Asia, USA, Europe)
First I'll answer the question that is in my reach
The reason why the Muslim World is in brutal state now is because Mongol Invasion
(Like you know,when the Mongol Invade Baghdad they destroy most books there,The copy survived was mainly in North Africa and Europe) and then they also probihited free-speeching
(Just everyone here to know,The free-speech originate in near Arabs.Or Middle East for it's the place of birth of many great civilitazion,morality,and science(Phsycics,biologys,Chemicals,And Religion too(All semit religion originates there.This could mean 2 reason:1)The Semits people are blessed
:or 2)The Semits people are the most barbaric of the people in the world.The example was the death of nabyy Zakaria and Yahya(Although maybe the name is diffrent in english,I'll use the name that I was told about))
And then it's people after the turks has running away from the way of science.Altoght they were a bend of people(I can't use word RACE here :) ) that is great in science and Military (they still,though.Search for the mountain men in Afganishtan,The men there is very good at fighting).Now the west rise because the MUSLIM Stupidity.
For others I'll answer later
Indonesia War Minister[/QUOTE]
1) The Mongol invasion occured almost 700 years ago, World war II which was by far more devastating than the mongol invasion occured only 60 years ago, yet Europe and East Asia recovered, so blaming the Mongols is purely nonesense unless you are trying to say that the people attacked by the mongols are too stupid to recover the civilization? No, China is in a vast economic boom, and it was brutally conquered by the Mongols, the same goes for all other countries, Russia, the Middle-East, Central Asia, they are not in ruin, they are independant countries, some with weak economies, some with strong economies, but all of them have had many wars, disasters etc. after the Mongols sometime in their history, yet they have all recovered.
2) Free-Speech did not exist until philosophers in the Enlightenment started question the authority of the monarchs using the moral or ethical judgement of God to silence peasants, the so called divine right to rule, and it wasn't until the American revolution did these ideas get implemented into a country, and after the Napoleonic wars were they universally accepted as ethical. Sorry to say the Mid-East or the Muslim world did not have free-speech, at least my defintion of free speech is being allowed to speak your mind, think however you want etc. without being persecuted. Pagans were persecuted for their beliefs, which is not free-speech so that ends any sort of ideas about free-speech in the muslim world in the Middle ages, but even today there is no free-speech in most countries, that would result in harsh punishments.
3) The Mid-East was the birthplace for great civilizations I admit, as well as the birth of a religion, and the Arab scholars during the middle ages were excellent scientists, philosphers and astronmers. This however, ended with the Renessaince, as Byzantine books, written in Greek were passed on to Western Europe and particularly Italy, this inspired many people which started the Renessaince, in the Ottoman Empire, the printing press was rejected as being a devil's tool, and that started the long decline of the Ottoman Empire, the last islamic caliphate. It was the Ottoman Empire's technological lag that has started since the Renessaince that resulted in it's final downfall.
4) You might be saying Semitic people to refer to arabs, but what about the jews? Who have invented countless things that we are dependant on, there were many jewish philosophers, scientists, etc. If you are including jews as well, then I agree, but one cannot judge such a large ethnic super-group by their accomplishments, for example you wouldn't say that the Germanic people started the industrial revolution, or the Sinic people invented gunpowder, etc. Try to focus a little more specificly, since all these groups have their accomplishments.
5) Just like what I said before, anyone could say any ethno-linguistic group of people have great accomplishments or horrors, in the case of horrors, the Semitic people have done a great deal of horrors, this ranges from persecution of early christians by jews, to modern terrorism today, but all these groups do 'good' and 'bad', whatever those terms actually mean to these different groups, the 'bad' to us, might be 'good' to them.
6) As I said before, the turks and most of the islamic world was pretty much backward ever since the mid 15th century, not just after the turks in the 1920s and beyond, but since the 15th-16th century. The people in Afghanistan, the mountain men, are great fighers is a relatively vague term. Great boxers? Great Terrorists? or maybe Great soldiers? Be a little more specific, and let's assume it's great soldiers, the US is not going to invade a country like Afghanistan because they have great soldiers, there are many countries not allied with the US that have "great soldiers", the US has justified it's invasion of Afghanistan, for removing the taliban and other such groups from the area to protect it's citizens, and many countries joined with the US because this was morally justified.
IWM, You are partialy right, but I would like to hear from you what of Mongol invasion caused the biggest damage on the muslim world.
I will just correct you in several things where I think you were wrong in your reply:
Like you know,when the Mongol Invade Baghdad they destroy most books there,The copy survived was mainly in North Africa and Europein 1258 Baghdad was only a shadow of what it was before. In that time the intelectual capitals of Islam were Cairo and Damascus (al-Qahira and Dimashq) with Baghdad being 3rd
and Cairo surviver absolutely unharmed by the mongols, it even could got impulse as the sholars had no other place where to go! But stil it stagnated (or rather declined). So I ask you WHY?
North Africa aswell as Egypt was muslim country, many books were in Spain where the biggest intellectual centres (Cordoba and Seville) just fell in hands of catholic kings, but the knowledge was not forgotten in Maghreb.. not yet!
Just everyone here to know,The free-speech originate in near Arabs.Or Middle East for it's the place of birth of many great civilitazion,morality,and science(Phsycics,biologys,Chemicals,And Religion too(All semit religion originates there.This could mean 2 reason:1)The Semits people are blessed
r 2)The Semits people are the most barbaric of the people in the world.
you contradict yourslelf!
but I wonder what you mean: who are semits in your point of view? and who are condamned and who blessed.
Jews claim to be blessed, do you agree? they were the first to get the Law of the only God, do you agree?
As to the scientists, it is not true. Muslim scholars in 7th - 13th century collected all known knowledge from India to Spain, but most of the knowledge was mostly of Hindu, Greek, Persian or other origin. It were the Arabs and Jews, Persians, Greeks and Syrians who - in service of muslim rulers and in Arabic - collected all this knowledge and created the greates culture of what we call middle ages
Which Yahya you mean? the one which is called "righteous, honorable and chaste person, as well as a Prophet of the Righteous ([Qur'an 6:85], [Qur'an 3:39]). He came to confirm the Word of God ([Qur'an 3:39])" in the Qur'an? (citation from Wikipedia)
how could somene who is righteous and honourable person as well as the Prophet (Muhammad) be barbaric as you said?
Did the demoralization in Indonesia got that far that young faithfull Muslims are taught to deny words of Qur'an?! that young faithfull muslims call 2 of prophets of Islam barbaric people?!
or do you mean that Herod killed them? but do you know that Herod wasn't a Jew?
And then it's people after the turks has running away from the way of science.Altoght they were a bend of people(I can't use word RACE here ) that is great in science and MilitaryTurks? What do they do here? Mahmud of Ghazna conquered Isfahan only to force Ibn Sina/Avicenna (I suppose you know this great persian philosopher) to work in his services, the great Seljuq invasion arrived to the middle east in 11th century, in time of Ibn Rushd(Averroes) or al-Ghazzali, great sholars, and they didn't run away! The turks dominated the Middle East in military and politicaly but they let the sholars work in peace (and wanted them to work). In many areas they even inspired economic and cultural growth (central Asia f.i.)
Why do you always say that the bad is caused by the others and the good of others always goes from you?
Have you ever heard of what happened in Europe between 1258 (when it still was lost corner of civilization compared to rising Egypt - untouched by the mongols - the centre of wisdom of Islam?
btw, Europe was damaged as well as Middle east by sucidal wars but it always recovered as well as China, why didn't the world of Islam? Why didn't the Blessed people recover when they still held most of Old Worlds knowledge and still much more than Europe or China had in 1258 (especially China which was also terribly damaged by Mongol invasion)
but please don't forget my original 9 questions, I'm looking forward to your answers
PS: Carbon - most of ancient greek knowledge arrived to Europe through very long journey: it was translated from Greek to Syriac, from Syriac to Arabic in 7-9th century's Syria, then it spread to the entire islamic world as well as other knowledge of the Old world (Persians, Arabs, Hindis etc.) and through Sicily and Spain where it was translated to Latin it got to west Europe in 12th-14th century
PS: Carbon - most of ancient greek knowledge arrived to Europe through very long journey: it was translated from Greek to Syriac, from Syriac to Arabic in 7-9th century's Syria, then it spread to the entire islamic world as well as other knowledge of the Old world (Persians, Arabs, Hindis etc.) and through Sicily and Spain where it was translated to Latin it got to west Europe in 12th-14th century
Yes, you are right, Byzantine books fell to the hands of arabs before reaching Europe in the 15th century, but that is what started the renessaince.
I find this thread to be a bit to controversial for an open forum as this! We do not have a DMZ here in this forum as we did in the old Sunflowers forum. Threads such as this belong in an area such as the old DMZ.
Since the forum Administration here has not provided us with a place for controversial topics, I feel that such as this should not be discussed here!
I find this thread to be a bit to controversial for an open forum as this! We do not have a DMZ here in this forum as we did in the old Sunflowers forum. Threads such as this belong in an area such as the old DMZ.
Since the forum Administration here has not provided us with a place for controversial topics, I feel that such as this should not be discussed here!
I guess things got a little out of hand, although I think it was controversial from the beggining, I think it was originally about infidels or something?
Demoralezation in East Country.
What do you think about that?
I think that the American Free :( (many) made that
(there are many gangster in Jakarta now.Very sad for us)I'm sorry; like Elvain, but more concise, I ask: what do you mean?
I'm sorry; like Elvain, but more concise, I ask: what do you mean?
He believes that American influnces in "East" countries is ruining culture etc.
Sorry Friends. I know I'm wrong now. I always wrong.:bash: :bash:
So sorry Frujin and Friends for making the Gaming Forum has the RMZ without Orders!
Sorry Sir!
Sorry Friends. I know I'm wrong now. I always wrong.:bash: :bash:
So sorry Frujin and Friends for making the Gaming Forum has the RMZ without Orders!
Sorry Sir!
It is okay, it was everyones fault, including me too. I got carried off debating with several other people...